We've long wanted a new default theme for Drupal. Our trusty workhorse theme Bluemarine has long outlived its usefulness: the markup still contains tables and the look is quite dated. Pretty much everyone in the Drupal community agrees with that.
For Drupal 5, some work has been done on a new default core theme. The Lullabot guys have built a valid, flexible XHTML/CSS template and ported an OSWD template to it with the help of others in the community. The theme has been reviewed and tweaked to death by a bunch of developers. Many people have said that this theme (called Delicously Zen) is our new default theme and that it should be added immediately.
Stefan Nagtegaal has also been designing a theme. He offers an alternative called Themetastic which is a better choice in my opinion.
There have been some mails back and forth about this in private, but I wanted to jot down my thoughts here for everyone to see as well, as my opinion is based on more than just taste. And, as a core committer and someone who has done plenty of theming work for Drupal, I do think I have a good perspective on the issue. Please read on.
Deliciously Zen
ThemetasticI think a good new default core theme should offer the following:
- Flexibility. A default theme will be used for blogs, for news portals, for forums, for brochures, etc. This means it needs to support all of Drupal's theming features and accomodate tons of varied content well.
- Branding. The default theme will be the face of Drupal through the many sites that will not bother changing to another theme. If people see multiple sites using the same theme, this might encourage them to check out Drupal.
- Aesthetics: the theme obviously needs to look pretty, on as many configurations as possible. Not only will it make Drupal look prettier out of the box, it will also be an important way to attract more designers to the Drupal platform (which we sorely need).
Note that I did not say anything about easy editability. This means whether the theme should be easy to make small adjustments to, for your own purposes. In my opinion, this condition goes against the two last points above:
- A theme which has branding in it, automatically becomes harder to change to your own branding, than one which is a proverbial 'blank slate'.
- It is very hard to make an aesthetically pleasing, modern-looking theme that does not contain significant graphical elements. These elements are by definition harder to edit than a simple .css file.
So, I think any theme which is intended to be a base for themers is by definition unsuitable to be a default core theme. This applies to Deliciously Zen. I also think Deliciously Zen is problematic as far as branding and aesthetics go:
- The only significant branding/identity is the Druplicon logo, which any serious Drupal user will immediately remove. What's left is a very generic white minimalist theme that could really be anything. It is not even an original Drupal design.
- The original design is squarely aimed at text-heavy, brochure-like sites with few links and depends on some images in the content to spice it up. If you replace the content with typical Drupal fare, this very delicate minimalist balance is lost: links and lists overcrowd the page and sidebars attract too much attention.
In short, I think Delicously Zen makes a lousy default theme. However, one thing I've heard people say is that "it's at least better than Bluemarine so there really is no reason not to make it the new default theme".
I disgree. Right now, Drupal has a very high visiblity and the Drupal 5.0 release is definitely going to be a major event. If we replace Bluemarine with Deliciously Zen, people are going to be shouting "Drupal 5 has a brand new look!" as soon as it's released. This will build high expectations for existing and new users alike; expectations which Deliciously Blue does not meet by far.
What we end up with is confirming what people have 'suspected' for a long time: that us poor, silly Drupal people just don't 'get' design and that Drupal will always remain the clunky, ugly CMS it is now. To counter this, we just don't need a theme that doesn't suck, we need something that looks great.
Now, as an XHTML framework for developers and designers, Zen is great and can go into core, but not without a much better default theme to sit beside it. I think Themetastic is that theme:
- Flexibility. Themetastic works equally well with 1 column or 3 columns. The clever design doesn't overemphasize the sidebars, but does not give the impression of gaps if they're not there. It's also, essentially, just a fancy frame, with pretty typical Drupal fare inside which accomodates all content without any problems. It is trivial to make a fixed and fluid version of the theme too.
Stefan has also been designing the theme from day one with help from Adrian so you can create custom colored versions of the whole thing easily. All the images are derived from a single base color + a PNG file. This means even people who are not doing any theming whatsoever can still have some degree of customization.
- Branding. Due to the strong emphasis on the base color, it perfectly propagates the "Drupal = Blue" brand. It's also an original design which is easily recognizable regardless of the content.
- Aesthetics. Of course, this item comes down to taste. But I know I really liked Themetastic from the moment I saw it. I think it's clever, refreshing, but not over-done. The theme also styles more than just the bare essentials.
Themetastic does need a lot of finishing touches, but some people plain don't like it either. However, I'm well aware that it is impossible to please everyone, especially when it comes to design. I'm going to try working on Themetastic with Stefan this week to see if it can be further improved. This might include some drastic changes to the overall design, but only if they don't compromise the harmony of the whole.
I think Themetastic is the new default core theme in making. However I do want to emphasize that I do want a solution that makes at least the majority of people happy ;).
I agree but
I agree with everything you say about the features of the default theme but I cannot square it with the visuals.
The Zen theme is the best in Web2.0 design. It is clear, inoffensive and very light-weight. It should definitely ship as one of the core themes. On the other hand, I can see that it would not work all that well with all three-column designs.
The Themetastic theme is very flexible and eye-catching but it literally makes my eyes hurt. Not because of esthetics (I think it's quite nice) but because of all the transparencies and ill-defined contrasts that simply take over the page. I'm afraid that it would be a very off-putting theme to newcomers in the current color scheme.
I simply think Zen, as it is now on the surface, would be a better brand - especially because of its unobtrusiveness - kind of like Kubrik with Wordpress. But it needs work to accommodate more complex layouts. I'm saying this as someone who is coming from a more 'corporate' (University) rather than 'community' based approach to implementing Drupal.
what about bluebreeze?
I think there is a third theme that deserves mention.
Demo here http://xcite-online.de/drupal/
See discussion here http://drupal.org/node/89497
I'm a big supporter of themetastic
I believe it's Drupal's Kubrick.
Here's an example of what it's built to do :
Pick a colour :
http://www.oasismag.com/farb-1.jpg
Any colour :
http://www.oasismag.com/farb-2.jpg
Hit the button and it recomposites the images and rebuilds the css :
http://www.oasismag.com/farb-3.jpg
It also has the following colour schemes which can be used in your css templates :
http://www.oasismag.com/farb-4.jpg
Invisible borders
I agree with Dominik about contrast.
Onother drawnback of Themetastic may be the lack of visible "borders". The fading frames make it difficult to see where the blocks end, and non-designers may have a hard time tweaking the css.
I also agree with Steven about the lack of strong branding with Deliciously Zen. It lacks a distinctive element to be a default theme. I mean even Kubrick has something distinctive: it's huge blue banner. Take it away and there's nothing left.
But Deliciously Zen could be a great customizable secondary theme like Pushbutton or Chameleon for 4.7.
Mh... How much time do we still have to submit a new theme?
All three
The color switching in Themetastic is great! I don't think many people have seen this, but it is a very attractive feature.
If I had my way, all three of the themes mentioned, Themetastic, Zen and Bluebreeze, would be shipped with core. And maybe even a couple more, especially if these can be pure CSS themes. While we do need to settle on one that is the default for a new install, having other Zen-based themes in the core download package will make a lot of people happy. After all, it is not only Bluemarine that needs retiring! None of the current core themes look good.
How will install profiles benefit from having 3-5 new themes in core? Can the install profiles set the theme as well?
All three would be my vote too.
Definitely an area where it doens't have to be a zero sum game...the more choices the better perhaps.
Ok, so what's the plan?
I believe very strongly that we need a new default theme in Drupal before we can release 5.0, but we're running out of time. So we should attack this in the most streamlined way possible.
I found an issue:
http://drupal.org/node/88202
and some screenshots in CVS:
http://cvs.drupal.org/viewcvs/drupal/contributions/themes/themetastic/
Would it be helpful to create a project for this, so other developers could submit patches to attend to the issues Steven identified?
Is this a Zen-based theme? If not, could it be made a Zen-based theme? The Lullabot folks (well, not me ;)) have put quite a bit of work into making that a nice, flexible XHTML framework ... most of their efforts going into the issue queue here: http://drupal.org/project/issues/zen and it would be great if we could combine efforts and make the back-end stand out as much as the front-end.
If we make Themetastic the default theme, is there any harm in including Deliciously Zen and/or Blue Breeze (http://drupal.org/node/89497) sub-themes that are included as well? I think it could also be helpful to have the old default, plain grey Zen theme included as a "wireframe" theme.
Anyway, just very interested in seeing this happen and want to know how to help. :) The other core committers seem to be deferring to your judgment on this issue, so please tell us how best to direct our efforts!
deliciously blue developer
As the guy who has done most of the work on the Deliciously Blue theme, I just wanted to comment that I agree with most of the things Steven is saying here. The hackability of the zen framework and the simplicity of deliciously blue were the reasons I wanted to combine the two together in the first place. I wasn't looking for the best looking design because often times those designs are not very "hackable".
To me it doesn't matter what the default theme when you first start Drupal. I wasn't aiming for this, I was just aiming for a new theme to be shipped with core. I feel that there needs to be a big push for lots of fresh theme development so we can attract more designers. Competition is good in this regard.
Definitely whatever is chosen as the default theme should be relatively simple, eye catching, and create a good brand. I'd REALLY like it if it attracted new designers! ("Wow, Drupal can look good...let me spend time to learn how to do this...") At which point, those designers can look at something like Deliciously Blue to start building their own themes (ala box grey hacking). D.B. aim to be the most flexible, standards compliant theme around.
Themetastic is a great design, I'd be happy if that was the default theme. I'd be even happier if it was also based on zen. I like all three themes mentioned above and agree that they should all get in (and more if possible).
Time is running out!
-Farsheed (zirafa)
choices people!
I agree with many of the comments on this page, and love the good debate.
My thoughts are very different from what I have read here, except for the bit about giving a number of options to our users. I would suggest we release a number of themes in core. The biggest problem I see is almost the point of this article - there are themes that are appropriate for different types of sites. Trying to cram all sites into one default theme for Commerce, Content and Community websites for corporate, non-profit, and personal users is not likely to be profoundly useful to the largest audience - which is the goal here.
I would suggest users should decide what becomes the default theme. I would put these options up for a vote on drupal.org, especially if they're provided in a demo form for people to look at and try out - that's the best test. Start with a limited number of themes - say 5-10, and then pick the top that users desire. I'm sure there are at least 5 good themes out there (hey, three in this thread already!).
My suggestion would be to provide three themes - a nice number - in the final product. After all, there's no accounting for personal taste.
The downside is we might end up with a theme picked by committee rather than design staff. But often user success isn't tied to the obvious design priorities.
My 2c.
Jonathan Lambert
One theme
The current goal is to add one theme to core. We can add more themes in future releases but given the deadline (we want to release a first beta release), it is not advised to focus on more than one theme. It takes time and polish to get a theme in core. So we'll add one theme in this release, and we keep working on more themes for future releases.
Themetastic
- looks super-nice to me!
I think that for a default theme we need something that makes you go 'wow' and works nicely for small sites with less need for the traditional 'grid' design.
Zen/Bluebreeze look great for developers and 'big' sites, and I really appreciate the work that has gone into them.
Short-sighted decisions
Themetastic is an excellent default theme for a blogging system, and a mediocre one for community sites, brochureware, and a number of other applications common for Drupal. It's too low-contrast, with nil support for secondary links or the search box. If 'looking great in a varity of situations' is a key requirement, enough to disqualify Delicious, then Themetastic gets shot down by the same criteria.
Mind you, I'm not fond of Delicious as the default theme, either. It does suffer from many of the problems you mentioned, and it strikes me as a good replacement for Marvin rather than BlueMarine. Themetastic exchanges Delicious' problems for others; fixing them will require the same kind of design-by-committee morass that you feel Delicious suffered from.
The debate that's been raging for two months is tremendously frustrating. Frankly, I think the idea that Drupal needs a pretty default theme to attract designers is a distraction. Drupal's problem is more serious:
There is no way to create a clean CSS-only theme without copying an existing theme (BlueMarine is popular but bad for that), or delving into PHP and the intricacies of Drupal's theming system. The Zen HTML -- its page.tpl.php, node.tpl.php, and so on -- is a much better starting place for CSS designers than themetastic. Period.
In a perfect world, we'd simply use the Zen tpl.php files as the PHPTemplate defaults, including its page.tpl.php.
I'd be able to tell the designers I know that there's finally a clean, standards-compliant, ready-made HTML framework for them to work with in Drupal core. THAT will attract more skilled designers than any single pretty theme; designers worth listening to know that a robust starting point is worth more than a dozen gorgeous screenshots.
bluebreeze
As the author of the bluebreeze theme, I just wanted to inform everyone that I made a couple of updates to theme.
See #89497 for downloads and further comments.
It is based on the great HTML source (node.tpl and so on) of the zen theme (I had to modify them slightly), and what I tried to achieve was to combine style, usability and universality (the default theme should be a good solution for at least small, personal blogs and large community sites, it should have some eye-candy, and, what should not be forgot, it should also be a convenient and usable administration theme).
A demo site is up on http://www.xcite-online.de/drupal, screenshot of the administration page here.
+1 to a more complete framework
Since there can only be one, i think its better to have a more complete framework as a starting point, then a theme that only works well in couple of situations.
I gotta say thought, Kodo's to everyone, all of these themes are are a HUGE improvement, and really raise the bar...
customised Bluemarine
My dear geeks,
I am not a programmer. A friend of mine had helped me design my website using bluemarine theme and drupal 4.6. He had customised the theme and added code in such a way that i could easily upgrade it. Since then with every bluemarine update, I have manually copied and pasted the extra code of my custom bluemaring theme into specific areas of the updated bluemarine theme.
However, if bluemarin were to be retired for drupal 5.x, people like me will be stranded as
1) It will be scary
2) I and am sure a lot of others will have no idea where to put the additional code/customise the theme to get the original look of our site and whether it will work or mess up the site
3) we might end up either not upgrading or else thinking of employing a preffesional to upgrade our site (this being out of my meagre means)
So can I request you all to please think of us poor souls and keep the bluemarine theme as well.
Manuj
@manuj_78: The discussion is
@manuj_78: The discussion is currently not about removing bluemarine totally, but about adding a new theme as *default* theme, so bluemarine will probably still be shipped with drupal 5, but won't be the default theme anymore.
drupal.org?
I'd love to see drupal.org use one of these new themes. Is there any talk of change the drupal.org theme? I have trouble with the current in IE7.
theming
I don't understand this dialog. What web designer uses someone else's theme? Surely, nearly every organization wants to create their own look and feel and arrange their content visually according to their own tastes and desires. Thus, the emphasis in Drupal on including canned themes is to me totally misguided.
Instead, Drupal should be offering a clear means of designing one's own original templates. I want to design my own three-column layout for my home page and one- or two-column layouts for most other pages on the site, all using CSS, and I want Drupal to provide me an easy and clear way to insert links to the Drupal generated content into the CSS structured template.
This need not be code-less, but what would be great would be a library of snippets of php encapsulated in HTML with accompanying CSS, organized by module etc., that we can copy and paste into the relevant locations in our templates.
If this could be built for Dreamweaver or if a visual design environment could be created, then we could perhaps even drag and drop them in, but a visual environment is not an essential.
Anyway, let's do away with themes and instead work on improving themability.
Christopher: Canned themes are needed
As often happens, you seem to assume that what you do with Drupal is what everybody does with Drupal.
I'd say the majority of Drupal installations out there use a canned theme, or at least one which is only a slightly tweaked canned theme. Not everyone who wants to set up a website has lots of funds at their disposal to get a custom design made. Perhaps it is only a personal site, or for a local hobbyist group. A canned theme is the only option for those people. With this is mind, the recoloring feature is a perfect fit, because it offers a large chunk of customizability for free.
And I'd say that having an attractive core theme by default not only helps hobbyists, but even consultants and designers who do all their work from scratch. If you want to demo Drupal to a client, doing it in Bluemarine means you give a bad impression from the first second. We all know how most non-web people have difficulty separating design from function. Being able to show off Drupal in an attractive theme whose colors match the client's visual identity is a huge benefit.
An attractive default theme is also a solution to the old problem of administration themes. You can either spend a long time trying to get your custom theme to accomodate Drupal's administration area well, or you can simpy use the Garland theme as an admin-only theme, and save yourself a lot of time.
Besides, standard templates have been part of computer use for a long time. They exist in your Word processor, in your e-mail client, in hosted blog services, etc. And you only need to look at myspace.com to see what happens when you force people to do their own theming from scratch. For every beautiful page, there are a hundred ugly ones. Do you also scoff at microwave dinners because 'all we really need is a market with fresh ingredients?'.
For me, the focus on having an attractive core theme comes from seeing the Kubrick theme from Wordpress. Soon after it was added to Wordpress, it started popping up everywhere: it was moderately attractive and was perfect for a blog. It became the face of Wordpress and showed everyone that Wordpress could look great. It inspired many people to start doing their own theming.
All this doesn't mean that we don't need a nice XHTML framework for designers. But the point of my blog entry was to explain how this is a very different task to making a new default theme, with very different goals. Many people on the development mailing list seemed to miss this.
Major vote for inclusion of
Major vote for inclusion of a completed css layout theme framework to use as a base for development (like Zen).
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